hey all, looking for a discussion and opinions on creeking PFD<S Type V, zip up verses pull over. We have had 2 experiences this year where a paddler has had to make the dicesion to come out of their vest using just one arm. Both were using zippered vest. One would not have been able to be cut. If they had been in the pull over types??? it could have made the local headlines. Is not having a zipper really more comfortable or are they jst saving a few bucks?? What about the trend to go away from the full 2" thick belt to a 1"?? Function or pennies?.

Any other such experiences out there??
Thanks

t

Hmmm

Interesting discussion.

Firstly, what was the situation where your friends had to get out of their pfd? Im curious...

I personally like the pull over type vest for a few reasons...

I see zippers as a weak point for one potential problem, even my Aquavest 300 zipper is blown and thats just the pocket. also I find my pull over to be more comfortable than my old zip up lotus noli. Also my Aquavest doesnt ride up on me like my lotus did

As far as 1inch vs 2 inch webbing. im sure that although 2in would be stronger the 1in is plenty strong for all tether situations, My climbing webbing is much narrower than 1in and strong enough to absorb lead falls. Granted Im not sure of the exact tensile strength of the webbing used on a rescue vest but im thinking it is in the same ballpark.

Might try calling Astral and asking them straight out

Hey Laddie, Will try to make it short.

1st incident was on a steep creek in S. Idaho. big drop and a freak tree branch went thru the shoulder strap. Turned the boat 180 so he could not pull boat was not going anywhere. The force of the water tightened the vest so deep aginst the body no way to cut it off even though he was able to get out his knife. Holding the branch with one hand to steady himself he was able to unzip the vest and turn the boat 180 to slip out of it and hand paddle the rest of the drop. Lost the paddle and took 2 hours to retrieve the vest. He thinks he Would not have been able to get out of a pull over. He is a serious class V boater.

2nd happened to me in Bhutan. Got caught on the wrong side of the bubble between 2 waterfalls that were 7' apart. Boat was 8' , didn't fit in between so ended up out of the boat clinging onto a narrow foothold between the 2 falls. Tried 2 times to swim out over the bubble caused by the opposing falls but could not get over due to the floatation of my PFD. Bubble hight was a foot high. Each time was a memorable beat down. My only thought was to get out of the vest and dive into the near side fall in the hopes it would flush me down under the bubble and out the other side. The slightest movement would make me slip from the toe hold and another round with the bubble, not sure how many I ended up with. Would never have been able to get a pull over off. Was lucky (thanks Ryan) my friends are serious and actually practice with a throw bag. felt something hit me in the back and it was a throw bag. A perfect 60' throw!!

Anyone who elf (extra low flow) boats know the strangest things can and do happen out there so I think this is something everyone should take a serious look at. I am not bad mouthing any brands, lots of pull overs out there. I was using a MacPac Hoodoo and would have been able to unzip. I was at the end of it's life at 6+ years and Am now using a Ronin Pro, the wife used a guide and most friends have dumped the Astrals and now use various zip ups. Looks like ExtraSport has a cool new vest the Pro Creeker with a great tightening system.

As for ride up? All modern vest if adjusted properly seem to work well. We really have no problems there at all.

As for the 2" vs 1" I don't really care about or need the strength. My problem is the weight distibution that 2" gives you over 1" (double) when you hook that creek boat, say 80gal, weighs what 550+lbs? and thats without current. Feels like your spine could rip out!!!

Anyway, know there are alot of you creekers on the site. Would like to hear more.

THANK!!!

t

Almost forgot.... Zipper blowout. Have never seen one happen that you could not see comming for a few months. Pockets yes, but the securing zipper?

I find that the zipper is a weak point if you are going to try and pull somebody out of a pin situation using any part of the jacket that you can grab hold of or clip into. Even a brand new zip will burst if you pull on it hard. Sure if you have the time and reach to clip into the QR belt all good (unless they have already released it) but in a bad situation the shoulder staps can be all you've got. This is why a good creeking vest has 1" (25mm) webbing running over the shoulders (hopefully without a plastic buckle in the middle) forming, with the Waist belt, a chest harness around the paddler. Slalom vests just get ripped into little bits in this situation.

The 2" (50mm) webbing on the QR belt is the same width as a car set belt (the car industry spent some money on testing. This is a good width!). A lot of companies have gone down to 40mm as it's a lot cheaper, but I haven't heard of anybody using 1" (25mm) for a QR belt. You definately can feel the difference in strong current. I personally don't use the QR Belt to tow boats to the side as it's way too dangerous just to rescue a lump of plastic.

A good Creek PFD should have foam covering your ribs, which is one reason why I liked the Astral rescue 300. It also needs to fit well, another reason that I like the Astral, and it needs to stay on ie. not ride up when you go for a swim. A few pockets are good too.

Here in europe most serious boaters (and designers) are more worried that the PFD should stay on, especially if somebody is unconscious. I think that situations where you must be able to remove your PFD are few and far between (these being the only two I have ever heard of) unless you need to do CPR, in which case it's not your biggest problem. OK anything can happen on the river, one year I heard of two deck entrapments whilst swimming within a couple of months. It didn't make me sell all my kayaks and only ever use my canoe. I do however always try to ensure that everything that is attached to me is as "clean" as possible. Meaning that thare are no straps hanging off which could snag on something and everything is streamlined.

The one bad point for the pull over PFDs is that they are very hard to get on over a dry suit, or in a hurry compaired to a zip up PFD.

Yours

Neil Newton Taylor

www.swiftwaterrescue.at

Those are also the only two instances I've heard of when a PFD with a zipper probably saved the situation. As a guess, I'd say that would be quite rare. For sure a PFD without a zipper would be far stronger. I've never owned one with a zip and don't think I'd feel as confident clipping into a live bait rescue. If the force was soley on the zip, it would give, no doubt. I'm sure those with zips have quick release buckles but perhaps they have threaded type buckles too? I have no idea. That would be stronger of course.

I'll still stick to my Astral Aquavest 300 or one of the Palms. It has all the features I need and never rides up. Interesting thread though.

(Welcome back to Playak Neil - been a while...)

Does anyone have any beta on a YKK Zipper (not the oines on a pocket) failing? Have seen them used on military tactical climbing harnesses. Just for fun have contacted Kokatat to see if they can give a number.

Would also like to know thoughts on why a non zippered vest would stay on better than a zippered one. My Ronin pro does not adjust from the zipper, it is just a way in or out. It is secured by a webbed harness system that in internal. Very secure and very comfortable. Just returned from the Micos area of Mexico. The "guides" in the area are all wearing the ExtraSport Pro Creeker. They have no problem with rideup and love the way it tightens around the body. As for body protection Both these vest also cover the ribs and the ronin (didn't notice on the extrasport) protects the upper spine higher that the Astral.

Will let all know when I hear back from Kokatat.

t

I will add that a few of my buddies are wearing the Astral Green Vest and it appears to top everything Ive seen b4 includign the AV300 and Palm...

We even got to use the tethered swimmer option this weekend and it appeard to be spot on!

bump

I may be looking at a rescue jacket soon, and like the Green Jacket for the features, but I don't like the pullover design as much. I currently have the Stohlquist Flowter , and I can fit my 2 Black Diamond Rock-Lock Carabiners, NRS Pilot knife, whistle, and 12' of rope (3 - 4' pcs.). I like the Flowter because of the zipper, which means that I never really have to adjust it, but it lacks the features that I want. I have also looked at the Stohlquist X-Traxt and the Nookie Rivermonster as my other choices. There is an Extrasport dealer a few miles from me, and I will probably check there soon, but I have a gift card to the USNWC, which carries Astrals, for $25 and they also have everything in the store at least 15% off. As a reference, I have the NRS Kayak Rescue Bag, which will probably not fit in any PFD, but that is not really a major concern, as many companies now make throw bags to fit in the PFD.

Edit: I also prefer neoprene, but it isn't really a major issue either way. The only reason that I got the Flowter was as a starter PFD, and is one of the only 2 parts of my equipment (Werner Desperado) that I have not changed (Helmet, skirt, boat).

Am seeing a lot more of the Extrasport "Creekers" now, Saw some on the Colorado crew and a couple in Mexico. All are loving the fit and the way it adjust from every angle.

Am using the Kokatat Ronin pro and love it. The rest of my crew still use the Guide and have for many years. They have zero complaints.

Both companies have good customer service and of equal importance to me both have made very generous donations to "the cause", First Descents when I have asked! ( www.firstdescents.org ) Personally, from my exprience, I am no a fan of the pull over type but at 14yrs old........25bucks is 25bucks?

Good luck!!

t

Going to try to fix all of the URLs:

I may be looking at a rescue jacket soon, and like the Green Jacket for the features, but I don't like the pullover design as much. I currently have the Stohlquist Flowter , and I can fit my 2 Black Diamond Rock-Lock Carabiners, NRS Pilot knife, whistle, and 12 feet of rope (3 - 4 foot pcs.). I like the Flowter because of the zipper, which means that I never really have to adjust it, but it lacks the features that I want. I have also looked at the Stohlquist X-Traxt and the Nookie Rivermonster as my other choices. There is an Extrasport dealer a few miles from me, and I will probably check there soon, but I have a gift card to the USNWC, which carries Astrals, for $25 and they also have everything in the store at least 15% off. As a reference, I have the NRS Kayak Rescue Bag, which will probably not fit in any PFD, but that is not really a major concern, as many companies now make throw bags to fit in the PFD.

Edit: I also prefer neoprene, but it isn't really a major issue either way. The only reason that I got the Flowter was as a starter PFD, and is one of the only 2 parts of my equipment (Werner Desperado) that I have not changed (Helmet, skirt, boat).

I will definitely look at the Extrasport Pro Creeker , and will most likely end up with the Pro Creeker or the Green Jacket, because of the nearest dealer's proximity to me. Money is definitely important, and the Stohlquist X-Traxt seems to be one of the least expensive at $175. Pricewise, all jackets are pretty much in the same range, right around the $200 mark. Here's one other side entry vest that I found: Salus Marine Darwin Expedition . Terry, could you please take a picture of the front pocket of the Ronin unzipped, and is there a zipper behind the front pocket, as I would imagine?

Would love to send pic's if you can wait a month. Let me know. All our gear shipped out to Spain yesterday. Will be paddling our way thur Spain, Portugal and Morocco until March!

Am back using my old MacPac "Hoodoo" until we leave.

On the Ronin Pro there is a large pocket in the front with a top zip where I keep my webbing and a pocker under that with a zip on my right side where I keep a folder. It has a cool cradle like pocket, no zipper, also on the right for the biener from your tow teather. Makes for a quick draw for sure.

Also note that unlike the picture on the Kokatat website this vest uses the wider 2" webbing on the quick release belt.

Something else to think about is that at the moment this vest is approved in Canada but is not USCG approved for sale in the US. Kotatat tells me it should be good to go in the US market soon. I got mine thru Canada. I have never been hassled about this and have been using a New Zealand approved vest for many years. Have heard of only two boaters, a German with a European Palm that was denied river access by a river ranger in a state that required the use of a USCG approved PFD and a rafter on the Grand Canyon.

t

According to Kokatat's site, the Ronin and Ronin Pro are already USCG approved. I know that REI carries the Ronin as of yesterday, so I don't know why the Ronin Pro is not available in the US yet (at least not online). Kind of dumb that a product made in the US is for sale in Canada first, but that's probably one of the reasons why not many people buy American-made goods.

As of 3 weeks ago, the last time I spoke with someone from Kokatat, the pro was still not USCG aproved but they were expecting it to be soon. It all comes down to money and how many units you expect to sell verses the outragous cost to get that approval. Really when you think about how many type V vest are sold compaired to type III you have to wonder if it is worth the hassle?

There are ton's of really good eguipment sold overseas that is not for sale here. A great example is the Graident Creek boot that is being made by Merrill as US company and Palm. It Will NOT be for sale in the US. They say the market here would not support it??? We have tons of creekers here! We haven't seen a creek specific shoe here in the states for years. I think the last one was probally the 5.10 Nemo hightop. Great support, would not roll on a sidehill, full foot protection, good drainage, fit in your boat and stick to anything.

Go figure.

terryblissstick wrote:

As of 3 weeks ago, the last time I spoke with someone from Kokatat, the pro was still not USCG aproved but they were expecting it to be soon.

I'm kind of wondering why Kokatat would put up a link that says "Both models will be made from GAIA™ PVC-free foam and are US Coast Guard and Transport Canada approved." Makes no sense at all:dry:.

by the way ordered the Merrell/Palm Gradient Creek Boot thru Performance Kayak www.kayaks.co.uk Will be here this spring....I hope?

not sure give their 800 number a call. They are totally cool people and with give you the correct information!

I'll probably just email and reply with their response on this thread.

Just talked to Matt at Kokatat. The Ronin Pro is not for sale in the US and will not be this year. They are still waiting for UL rule changes. Asked about the website and he said all information had just been updated and that must have been missed and they will make the change.

Hope that helps.... GREAT EXCUSE for a road trip to Canada!!

Not a great excuse when I live in North Carolina. Do you know why it has not received USCG/UL certification yet? Also, if it isn't certified, wouldn't it be better to go with the Extrasport Pro Creeker?

no, not really. It's the same vest as the Ronin only with an internal harness and the same quick release system thats on their Guide. Was told and can't remember by who (getting old) that there is a test that is done with a swimmer in a pool that having never seen the model has to put it on within a certin amount of seconds 14? 24?. Seem like a really stupid, unrealistic test but because the crossover style is so different it would take a few to figure out???

Too many engineers and not enough common sense!

Sigh

I Would definetly give the Extrasport a good look and try it on. It was my next choice if the Ronin didn't work out.

I also think, living in NC, you have a great excuse!! Start heading North, take a left somewhere?, then hit both sides of the Rockies all the way to BC. You can get even more creative on the way home... say by way of Mexico and the Micos Cascada!! Its all in the planning.

t

Kind of hard when you don't have a driver's license/permit or car...

My local store carries Astral, Extrasport, Stohlquist, MTI and Lotus.

well sounds like you have a good selection to choose from anyway..... but.... theres always some dirtbag boaters with extra room in their van heading to BC. You can call your parents from my place in N. Idaho before crossing the border. Just tell them you got lost on the way to school or something. haha

Our parents never bought that one either.

Sounds like old times...at 14 our adventures always took us to the Kern River .....AH! to be young again. Hard to believe it was 36years ago.

My parents take me to school... don't know if I want to go with "dirtbag boaters" anywhere. Back to the PFDs, is it possible to order one online without dealing with import tax? The only problem would be if it didn't fit.

EDIT: Kokatat replied and said that that was an '07 press release, and they have no plans to get it approved.

That's an old press release, from 2007. Turns out the ronin pro didn't
get approved for sale in the States. At this point there are no plans
to get it approved.

Such a pity about all these rules and regulations! I would buy a PFD if I thought it was good to go, approved by some governing body or not....

Only problem is that there aren't any places that carry it in the US as it isn't approved, so I don't want to spend around $160 not including customs/import tax to possibly get a PFD that doesn't fit how I want. The Extrasport Pro Creeker and Astral Green Jacket are probably my top 2 choices at the moment, with the Extrasport being a side entry and the Astral a pullover.

Here's the USCG PFD Requirements: link . Here's something from the link:

Accessibility

Wearable PFDs must be readily accessible.

You must be able to put them on in a reasonable amount of time in an emergency (vessel sinking, on fire, etc.).

They should not be stowed in plastic bags, in locked or closed compartments or have other gear stowed on top of them.

The best PFD is the one you will wear.

Though not required, a PFD should be worn at all times when the vessel is underway. A wearable PFD can save your life, but only if you wear it.

Throwable devices must be immediately available for use.

I have one last question: are there any consequences to not having a USCG-approved PFD? I don't want to spend $150+ on a PFD just to be told by an outfitter that I can't use it on a river. I will definitely keep my Stohlquist for the USNWC, but for natural rivers such as the Nantahala, I would definitely wear a rescue PFD in case anything happens.

Have only heard of the 2 incidents I mentioned before. Most "river rangers" seem to be OK but every now and then you run into a *#!@. Have been wearing a non USCG approved vest since 2001 with no problem.
You should go for the Extrasprot Pro Creeker. Think you would be happy, if it fits well and you will have no worries.
Anyone giving swiftwater courses in your area? Thats the next step.

t