drago are always sayin that there trying to make break throughs in the kayaking world and stuff but on their forum coran sed he had desighned the stinger to be based on the riot disco i meen how much of a breakthrough is that im not sayin their boats are bad in fact they seem to be reely good but i u think a riot disco remake is a breakthrough in the kayaking world u gotta be stupid or crazy or summat

he means you have to breakthrough your bank account to buy one of his boats

lol yer although otha companys charge that difference is their boats are worth bying i was gunna get a stinger but the ni red that thing and it wer shit although i wernt gunna buy a new one it was exdemo

i still wouldn't buy one even if i did have the money because ll's rule

[quote:30008e5e5a="jackb"]drago are always sayin that there trying to make break throughs in the kayaking world and stuff but on their forum coran sed he had desighned the stinger to be based on the riot disco i meen how much of a breakthrough is that im not sayin their boats are bad in fact they seem to be reely good but i u think a riot disco remake is a breakthrough in the kayaking world u gotta be stupid or crazy or summat[/quote:30008e5e5a]

you're right about a remade disco not being innovative at all, which is why I think the LL boats are not innovative, 420 not innovative, Kingpin not innovative, JK stars not innovative, we could keep going on with the disco remakes....

trying to make breakthroughs in the kayaking world does NOT mean that every single kayak designed will be a HUGE breakthrough for you to enjoy and fall instantly in love with. The kayaking world is larger than one single boat.

the Stinger is an EVOLUTION of the Disco, something a long time in the making.

For years, nothing could get me out of my Disco. I'd try other boats and after a while, just end up back in my Disco. What actually got me to finally move on from the Disco forever was the Fish. I have arguements with people who prefer the Stinger to the Fish. It's like, you just can't figure out which boat will be better for you, let you have more fun, the Stinger or the Fish. I, of course, prefer the Fish. But, I have also really really loved the Stinger on low volume creeks (I'm light 165lbs)

a simple dictionary definition of INNOVATION:
something new or different introduced.

perhaps, instead of being angry over a boat that you obviously do not want to really paddle and discover the joy it can bring you, you can make the hard search for this boat that you think you'll really love . [color=orange:30008e5e5a][/color:30008e5e5a]

hey liquid logic's rule

wow texas fish you apparently like LL you make it sound like you are on their staff your somthing like that

yes but LL hype aint goin on bout their on the fronteir of kayakin do they i say drago r good but not even half wot their hype and price say

n e ways man u dont hav to get all protective i was just sayin my point o view u r entihlted to urs too and urs seems to have back ups jus like mine so lets all be freinds again and get back to spreading the word of wot we all hav in common the gr8 sport of kayaking

Speaking of hypocritical LL Vision looks a lot like a dumned down space-cadet. Most good paddlers don't use that boat, because it sucks and is behind the times. Jackson Star, and Wavesport project are the choice of the good boaters!!

i think the main difference in the vision series is the rails that they added which are supposes to make it much better for surfing. apparetnly it works.

[quote:9bc008afc5="jackb"]n e ways man u dont hav to get all protective i was just sayin my point o view u r entihlted to urs too and urs seems to have back ups jus like mine so lets all be freinds again and get back to spreading the word of wot we all hav in common the gr8 sport of kayaking[/quote:9bc008afc5]

never thought we wouldn't be friends. I'm just a bit loud and boisterous. I think of the boating community as my brothers (and sisters) and hey, siblings often fight loud, call each other silly names, but in the end, it's all family and everything is just peachy. No worries.

Just how much do you think DragoRossi boats are anyway?
full suggested retail in the U.S.A. is $1150
everyone ranges from $1000 - $1200 here

OH. I've paddled the Vision. The rails hold a straight line when on edge, but they don't really carve. A bit better than nothing, but the carving thing is pretty much false.
The key to LL boats is their butt bouncing capability. Not fast at all, but they bounce pretty high. So, it's like LL and DR at complete opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to wave moves. (and everyone else is just trying to make some sort of compromise)

they range for about 1400 around here

check the [color=red:43ed3d80d1]NRS[/color:43ed3d80d1] site. $1150

check the [color=red:6780b5c620]NRS[/color:6780b5c620] site. $1150

wow that is preety cheap they are way out of my range though I though they look awsome

they look okay but why spend 1100 dollars on a boat that will last just as long as every other boat

because the boats simply perform better for alot of people than others do.

the same reason people spend more than twice as much on one car than another


just imagine, if you could spend 10% more instead of 110% more to have a performance improvement.

Also, by making your arguement, keep this in mind, it's YOUR arguement. There are lots of people who are quickly falling in love with the DragoRossi boats. If you are happy with the boat that you have, then you should not even be concern with those who are loving the DR boats. Just be happy with what you have, or this other boat that you want to have....

but, the fact remains, that the biggest obstacle to DragoRossi is that the majority of people are afraid of change. There is a well documented, yet seldom discussed truth about the human mind. Our brains absolutely love the IDEA of new ideas, but most often remain within the comfort of the familiar.

Which explains why so many people play like they are psyched about something genuinely new, then "prove" to themselves that it does not work. It is a self fullfilling prophesy. If you set out with a mind to demonstrate that something will fail, then it most likely will.

It's just easy to live in the familiar, and at best, take baby steps towards the unfamiliar.

Keep in mind. I'm not passing judgement here. There are plenty of places in my own life that I am super cautiious. I only have so much energy for taking chances to give new things an equal and fair chance. In lots of cases I only have the energy to maintain the status quo. But, for me, kayak designs are not one of them.

I"m intriqued by design, and excited by ANYONE who is genuinely experimenting for the benefit of the sport. Unfortunately I just feel that the majority of designers are spending more time developing a brand, a market share, and a stable income for themselves than they are spending on actual research that has the potential to lead to something exciting.

Sure, Corran and DragoRossi have to market their products, or else no more money comes in for research. But, Corran shares the same artistic impulses that I (and many other artists) have. That is, the burning drive to keep experimenting, and the intense desire to put the work out into the world and share it with others. I personally know that Corran is happy to debate, argue, and discuss his creative passion with anyone, on those terms. But, as soon as someone comes in a says, "this stuff is weird, the market research shows that people really want ....." he gets all angry, because that is not what it is about to him.

He is the only designer that I know who has resigned from kayak companies because they tried to tie his hands and stifle his creative drive. Every time it has been at the risk of moving to a lower paying job. Most other designers switch companies because they get a better money offer.

i love my boat and you are right about not caring about who likes what but still liquid logic's rule

[quote:550bc93a71="jackb"]drago are always sayin that there trying to make break throughs in the kayaking world and stuff but on their forum coran sed he had desighned the stinger to be based on the riot disco i meen how much of a breakthrough is that im not sayin their boats are bad in fact they seem to be reely good but i u think a riot disco remake is a breakthrough in the kayaking world u gotta be stupid or crazy or summat[/quote:550bc93a71]

Hey Jack,

I think you misunderstood what I meant. The Disco, even today, remains untique in that it is one of a very few designs that is NOT park and play, but it rocks playing. The disco's strength was that it is pretty much the only design that can go creeking on Friday, win a rodeo on Saturday and you can use to teach the girl you picked up from the winning podium to paddle in it on Sunday.

Lots of moders boats can win the rodeo, but the Disco had the distinction, even 5 years after its conception, of being the only boat to do all that this well.

But, it was 5 years old, and it needed to be redone. Many of he ideas were old, design concepts either flawed or greatly improved over that time. And yet, it remained still the best at this job. So it was time to make another one. Not another "park and play butt bouncer" but another boat that did everthing as well as the Disco.... but better.

And THAT'S harder to do than it sounds. There is a REASON the Disco, 5 years late, remained one of a kind. The Stinger is not a Disco copy. But it IS a Disco replacement. Its job is the same, but the design is modern, up to date and cutting edge.

The Jeep was a fantastic means of transport in WW2. The best ever. The Hummer is its modern replacement. its a better truck for the specific job of moving Army personel and gear through hostile zones than the Jeep was. The Jeep remains a cool car, but for the intended purpose the Hummer is better. But even though its intended to do the same job as the Jeep, and its existance could not have come to be without the Jeep it could never have come to be. However, it is also as clear that it is not, by any means, the same car. Same job, yes, but not the same car

Corran

thats awsome way to explain

now that you put it that way it makes sense but why are the kayaks so expensive

my brothers and i have been paddling riot for a couple years now and have never looked back..however riot has sold out..they are now building boats that are designed to sell not to perform...i would paddle drago in a heart beat because i know these boats are designed to perform..there arent any compromises and there isnt any dumbing down the design to get there boats to sell..

i personally cant afford a drago right now but if i could i would buy one..just look and compare the hulls of other boats to a drago...there is an obivious difference..speed on a wave is were freestyle kayaking is going..riot was going in that direction and they got scared and greedy..dragorossi sees the bigger picture.. i dont see LL trying to make a faster boat or any other company for that matter except maybe necky but if you like slow but bouncing boats all those other boats are great

[color=cyan:a85f8c0ee0]I'm sure Corran is out on a limb providing people with boats that will really perform. If you don't like his boats or the way he operates, then don't buy his boats. Simple. Same as cars. Different prices, different performance, different needs for different people. Life would be so boring if we were all the same...[/color:a85f8c0ee0]

yeah it would

its definitly all about your style of paddling...the boat you have the most fun in is the boat you should paddle...it shouldnt be about anything else

[quote:d8e764bf43="texasfish"]now that you put it that way it makes sense but why are the kayaks so expensive[/quote:d8e764bf43]

many reasons, that have been discussed ad nausium on just about every forum in the world, but to recap quickly, the boats cost more because we put more into them. The pure cost of the outfitting is almsot 2x that of any other company. The cost of R+D is also 2 time that of anyone else. The plastic we use is better... everything from A to Z is better, costs more and more time was spent on attention to detail. In the end this adds up.

As a matter of interest, the PROFIT margin on a Dragorossi for us is HALF that of what Riot boats were for me. So the boats are in fact about $200 LESS than they should be if we took the same mark-up as I did at Riot.

Corran

I thought that your boats should cost more though cause they arent for the beginner paddlers. They are ment for pros.

[quote:b9cc4db686]
ScottBarnes wrote:
... Our brains absolutely love the IDEA of new ideas, but most often remain within the comfort of the familiar. ...
[/quote:b9cc4db686]

Scott, thanks for this statement!

and

[quote:b9cc4db686]
ScottBarnes wrote:
... That is, the burning drive to keep experimenting, and the intense desire to put the work out into the world and share it with others. ...
[/quote:b9cc4db686]

Man... this is exactly what keeps our world spinning. People should do what their hard tells them to do, it's so much more honest!

(Sorry, I know this comment is somewhat off the discussion but I think it is related to innovation.)

well they have boats for both beginners all the way to expert paddlers